Virtua Fighter 4 Dreamcast....It would have been possible with enough I+D?

[Xaeroxcore]

Now that Force Five is finally on DC, we have the closest VF4/Tekken 4 DC Bootleg. Of course the canceled Atomiswave game, that wasn´t even meant to be a AAA title, is behind to those PS2 titles and even behind SC and DOA 2 on DC....but Force Five make some interesting tricks with lighting, backgrounds (with even 3D characters on the back), and textures....And it got me thinking about how an hypothetic VF 4 would look on DC...Did AM2 managed to do something apart from the VF4 Passport on DC? I would love play VF 4 on DC someday....May be with enough money it would have been possible on DC?

 

[PopetherevXXVIII]

That modem port might have been for more than just boradband.....

 

[JackalSpat]

VF4 is a Naomi 2 game, right?
So it's effectively at least twice the rendering power of a Dreamcast with more RAM and much greater lighting/geometry capabilities.

That said, Arcade titles--especially the first titles on a new platform--aren't usually coded particularly "close to the metal", and I doubt very much that Virtua Fighter 4 uses the entirety of what the Naomi 2 was capable of.

Looking at it pragmatically, I don't think the Playstation 2 port is outside the realm of what the Dreamcast could achieve, especially when you take contemporary Dreamcast fighting games like Dead or Alive 2 or Soul Calibur into consideration.

I think a port to Dreamcast would've required some concessions with texture detail, background geometry, lighting, etc. but I bet if AM2 were given the opportunity, the differences would've probably been less apparent than even the Virtua Fighter 3 TB port.

It's truly sad to me that no Sega home console saw a commited port of Virtua Fighter after Virtua Fighter 2, and I always wonder at what amazing titles the Dreamcast would've seen had Sega managed to hold out just a couple of years more.

 

[Americandad]

Of course a VF4 port is possible.

 

[la-li-lu-le-lo]

I think there was an interview where Yu Suzuki or someone else from AM2 said that they had done preliminary work on VF4 for DC to try to determine if it was possible or not, and they were not happy with the results because they had to make too many sacrifices - so they ended up deciding not to develop it further. Then the DC was discontinued, so that removed any chances that it might ever happen.

 

[Americandad]

Then the DC was discontinued

Real key factor right here.

 

[MetalliC]

I always wonder at what amazing titles the Dreamcast would've seen had Sega managed to hold out just a couple of years more.

to my knowledge, Dreamcast was NOT designed to be long-living platform, and originally was planned to be replaced by upgraded version (~Naomi2 equivalent) somewhere around 2001.
if this true - there wouldn't be much more amazing titles for original Dreamcast.

Of course a VF4 port is possible.

yep, we've seen Mortal Kombat games for NES or ZX-Spectrum, so VF4 for DC doable for sure, but obviously it will require serious rework (or to be made from scratch) and result will look not as good as Naomi2 or PS2 versions.

 

[Americandad]

result will look not as good as Naomi2 or PS2 versions.

Maybe, or maybe some clever engineering would make it look as good. At this point it's all speculation.
Also, terrible comparison comparing Mega Drive vs. Nes and PS2 vs. DC, ridiculous really. DC is way closer to PS2 compared to how far off the NES is vs. Mega Drive.

if this true - there wouldn't be much more amazing titles for original Dreamcast.

In DreamPod #77 (interview with Headhunter dev) Stefan Holmqvist states that Dreamcast was nowhere near showing off it's full potential by any released software. I tend to believe him.

 

[MetalliC]

Maybe, or maybe some clever engineering would make it look as good. At this point it's all speculation.

not speculation but suggestion based on analysis of VF4 for Naomi2 and PS2, plus deep knowledge of how N2 and DC hardware works, what it was capable of, and what is not.

Stefan Holmqvist states that Dreamcast was nowhere near showing off it's full potential by any released software. I tend to believe him.

this is partly true - almost none of games does full and balanced load of DC hardware capabilities.
but some do this - Dead or Alive 2 is one of best examples. sorry, but DC was not capable of notable better visuals than this.
in general, DC was good for the time of its release - 1998, but was outclassed by other gaming platforms released during next few years.

also, you missed main point - there is no reason to target some new cool games for NOT flagman platform.

 

[Americandad]

NOT flagman platform.

Assuming your hypothesis about Dreamcast 2 is true, at this point you're the only one who has spoken about this though.

not speculation but suggestion based on analysis of VF4 for Naomi2 and PS2, plus deep knowledge of how N2 and DC hardware works, what it was capable of, and what is not.

There's a difference in something looking the same and being the same. Meaning: you can make a port of a game look just as good on the screen while technically being inferior. That's where clever engineering comes in.

 

[MetalliC]

at this point you're the only one who has spoken about this though.

how do you think, what is total number of humans at this planet who understands N2 tech in all details and knows its development history ? (besides of original creators)

Spoiler

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and I'm the only such person at this forum

and btw, it is almost same can be said about DC, but there will be a few more persons.

There's a difference in something looking the same and being the same. Meaning: you can make a port of a game look just as good on the screen while technically being inferior. That's where clever engineering comes in.

in theory - yes, but at practice - it looks doubtful. otherwise we should have games for PS1 or N64 "looking the same" as PS2 or GC games, thanks to "clever engineering"

 

[Xaeroxcore]

how do you think, what is total number of humans at this planet who understands N2 tech in all details and knows its development history ? (besides of original creators)

Spoiler

3
and I'm the only such person at this forum

and btw, it is almost same can be said about DC, but there will be a few more persons.


in theory - yes, but at practice - it looks doubtful. otherwise we should have games for PS1 or N64 "looking the same" as PS2 or GC games, thanks to "clever engineering"

But you forget DC is one entire gen ahead of PS1and n64, so, in theory it could be easier to make DC games to look like PS2 or GC than 32bit/64 bits games...In fact, most of DC to PS2 and GC ports look at least to average PS2 and GC games for the early years, so at least on the 128 bit standard.

But i´m agree with you, DOA 2 is probably the tech roof at least on 3D fighting genre, which is no less....according to beyond 3d´s polygons counts (the famous yes, but how many poligons? thread), DOA 2 characters has more geometry than PS2 VF4 characters, and yes PS2 VF 4 still retains amazing lighting, particles, reflections and post processing effects from the N2 VF4, but DOA 2 stages are multilayer and some of them are more complex than some of the PS2 VF 4. So yes, VF 4 is more advanced, but it is on the same gen of DC, so it is not out of the reach of the console. I´m not saying it would look as good as the PS2 version, which is itself a tech miracle, but i see it possible...Only real reason they did not release it, is they considered a not worthy investment for a console leaving the market.... My point is, is not a way to maybe crowdfund an independent DC development that really push the console out of it´s limits, taking advatage of more modern programming tech???

 

[la-li-lu-le-lo]

What I think would’ve been even more interesting than DC VF4 is if they had ported the game to the GC or Xbox instead of the PS2. Either of those systems probably could’ve handled a port that was much closer to the original - look at the GC version of Beach Spikers for example, which was based on the Naomi 2 version. The Xbox’s hardware exceeded the Naomi 2 in nearly every way. I think the only reason Sega released it for the PS2 is because they wanted the system to have at least one big name game that wasn’t something like a DC port - that, and also maybe they thought it would sell better, which is probably true because it sold incredibly well.

 

[Xaeroxcore]

What I think would’ve been even more interesting than DC VF4 is if they had ported the game to the GC or Xbox instead of the PS2. Either of those systems probably could’ve handled a port that was much closer to the original - look at the GC version of Beach Spikers for example, which was based on the Naomi 2 version. The Xbox’s hardware exceeded the Naomi 2 in nearly every way. I think the only reason Sega released it for the PS2 is because they wanted the system to have at least one big name game that wasn’t something like a DC port - that, and also maybe they thought it would sell better, which is probably true because it sold incredibly well.

In regards to VF 4 PS2 port i´d bet that also Sony put money under the table or offered something to Sega, to keep it PS2 exclusive...Sony often does that, and i´m not judging, MS probably did the same to secure Shenmue 2 US exclusivity on Xbox, for example....It would be interesting to have VF 4 specially on GCN, as you said, probably a more faithfull VF 4 port than the PS2 we got. Anyway, PS2 port, specially Evolution, has lotta of merit, it really surpass Tekken 4 and 5 in some areas, despite being a game built for an entire different and most powerful architecture than PS2´s, unless Tekken 4 and 5, both were built around PS2 hardware. I´d put the PS2 VF4 on the same realm than the PS2 RE 4 port. Games that in theory would not even be possible on PS2, but here they are, and they are great games, considering PS2 limitations!


But DC going back to DC, it deserved a better VF than the VF 3 TB port we had. I´ve never understood why Sega did not put the money on a VF 4 on regular Naomi, instead of wasting money on Naomi 2....Naomi lasted like +10 years active and was a succesfull arcade system, while Naomi 2 how many games it has? less than 10, and was active for how many time? 4 years? with more expensive to make games....I know in theory Model 3 is superior to DC,/NAOMI 1, but compare VF3 against DOA2 and even Soul Calibur, both games STOMP Model 3 VF 3, something that proves they could have made a Naomi based VF 4 (or at least a reworked from scracth version of VF3) that would show a significant gap against everything on Model 3, and secure the damned DC port, or at least give us the last Sega console with a worthy Virtua Fighter game....

 

[MetalliC]

But you forget DC is one entire gen ahead of PS1and n64, so, in theory it could be easier to make DC games to look like PS2 or GC than 32bit/64 bits games...In fact, most of DC to PS2 and GC ports look at least to average PS2 and GC games for the early years, so at least on the 128 bit standard.

well, yes, but if speaking in general - all these generations in console world means mostly nothing.
lets look at so called 6th gen:

• 1998 Dreamcast - clearly DirectX 6 class system, with GPU something about RivaTNT2
• 2000 Playstation 2 - had special VU0/VU1 vector modules, which handle T&L and not only, imo it is somewhat DirectX 7 equivalent.
• 2001 GameCube - Flipper GPU had fixed-function T&L, plus TEV engine which may be considered early and limited pixel shaders, so it was almost like DirectX 8
• 2002 Xbox - Nvidia NV20A had fully functional vertex and pixel shaders - DirectX 8 or even early 9 class hardware.

so, same 6th gen actually had like 3 or even 4 different classes/generations of hardware, thus imo all these "console generations" classification chart mostly bullshit.

I´ve never understood why Sega did not put the money on a VF 4 on regular Naomi, instead of wasting money on Naomi 2....

wasting money ? there was no such term in Sega Arcade division they often used NAOMI board as a simple I/O controller, for hopper device for example, instead of some cheap 8-bit MCU. because they dont give a f... and in general, Naomi2 was not expensive, vice versa it was quite cost effective upgrade.
Sega Hikaru - that was really waste of money

Naomi lasted like +10 years active and was a succesfull arcade system, while Naomi 2 how many games it has? less than 10, and was active for how many time? 4 years?

not 10+, Naomi was mainly active up to 2006. then was mostly replaced by SystemSP, which was used up to 2010 as a low cost platform.

why N2 was active like 4 years - because of VERY fast tech progress these years, especially in 3D GPU. so, it was easier and better to use common PC hardware (e.g. Lindbergh) as a flagman platform for advanced games.
while still use Naomi1/SystemSP for simple medal, cards, coin pusher etc games, because they had shitload of boards and components for them.

as of "cool" arcade games in general - games like VF4 and VF5 generated laughful proffit, nowhere near for example simple collectible cards type games (Mushiking, Dinoking etc), or horse breeding games (Derby Owners, Star Horse etc).
so, Sega focused on that type of games which generate main proffit. and that was not fighting games or other "cool" arcade genres.

 

[Americandad]

have games for PS1 or N64 "looking the same" as PS2 or GC games

I agree with Xaeroxcore, in that DC hardware isn't really comparable to PSX/N64. But yes, of course, there's a limit to everything - including the DC and it's capabilities.

I'm not saying you can port Doom Eternal to DC.
I'm saying that a more or less true-to-arcade port of VF4 could be done.

Dreamcast was NOT designed to be long-living platform, and originally was planned to be replaced by upgraded version

how do you think, what is total number of humans at this planet who understands N2 tech in all details and knows its development history ? (besides of original creators)

Spoiler

undefined

Interesting. Could you possibly find the time to share your findings with us in a more in-depth manner?

 

[MKKhanzo]

Awesome thread. Just wanted to add that, while DOA2 might be the DC tech max, lets remmember that the Japanese only DOA2 Limited Edition, even tuned up graphics and managed to squeeze even more polygons to characters

Taken from:

Could Dreamcast et al handle this/that fighter? *spawn

I think the enviromens on DOA 2 are more complex (in geometry) than the PS2 Version of VF 4. So i don't See The VF4 backgrounds outta DC reach. But if...

forum.beyond3d.com

 

[speedyink]

Awesome thread. Just wanted to add that, while DOA2 might be the DC tech lax, lets remmember that the Japanese only DOA2 Limited Edition, even tuned up graphics and managed tonsqueeze even more polygons to characters

Taken from:

Could Dreamcast et al handle this/that fighter? *spawn

I think the enviromens on DOA 2 are more complex (in geometry) than the PS2 Version of VF 4. So i don't See The VF4 backgrounds outta DC reach. But if...

forum.beyond3d.com

This is the only version of DOA2 for DC in Japan, right? It was released last as that version, right?

 

[accel99]

in theory - yes, but at practice - it looks doubtful. otherwise we should have games for PS1 or N64 "looking the same" as PS2 or GC games, thanks to "clever engineering"

Since they released naomilib someone has been extracting models from doa 2 and fighting vipers 2 DC versions. Apparently doa 2 characters around 8,000 polygons and doa 2 stages are around 10,000+ polygons . That actually puts the doa 2 characters more detailed than ps2 Virtua fighter 4 characters. With clever engineering the background might take a beating but the characters can look ok. But he also mentioned that fighting vipers 2 , 2001 port done directly by am2 , has downgraded characters that are less 3000 polygons and the stages aren't far behind. Could it just be that despite all the fame am2 just wasn't adept on using the Dreamcast properly considering tecmos game seems to run circle around pretty much everything?.

Mostly reconstructed the opera stage from doa 2, i got tired so its missing minute things but its mostly there. Its 10,000 polygons. Just a quick comparison to Virtua fighter 4 , by sega own numbers each character on naomi 2 was 14,000 triangles and the stages were around 50,000 triangles. On dead or alive 2 on the dreamcast the characters seem to be around 8,000 polygons each which is in the neighborhood on Virtua fighter 4 ps2 version character of 7,000 polygons.(it was mentioned sega halved the polygon count for the port). I guess a port would have been possible but with massive rework to the background to be downgraded massively.
Doa 2 opera:

Fighting vipers 2 bahn
This why i have no faith in am2 doing a proper port of virtua fighter 4 , given this port of fighting viper 2 was released 2001. I finally managed to assemble a character as long time of manually putting it together. I DOUBT I ll do this again for this game since the unarmored version is stored with the armored version. Interestingly the unarmored version was more detailed ( resembles arcade version more)so I went with that(the face, musculature }. Bahn unarmored is 2,800 triangles , means you can stack 2 fighting vipers character together and still be !,000 to 2,000 polygons short of a single doa 2 character. The stages arent that much higher than the characters and seem to be have been massively butchered compared to the arcade version cant show yet since iam not finished assembling. Despite having such low count for a fighting game it still has slowdown on a real console, makes me wonder if maybe something behind the scene like physics or something else is holding it back. Iam willing to bet if I get to the virtua figher 3 stages they are probably slightly more detailed as are the characters and that was ported by genki.

 

[Xaeroxcore]

Since they released naomilib someone has been extracting models from doa 2 and fighting vipers 2 DC versions. Apparently doa 2 characters around 8,000 polygons and doa 2 stages are around 10,000+ polygons . That actually puts the doa 2 characters more detailed than ps2 Virtua fighter 4 characters. With clever engineering the background might take a beating but the characters can look ok. But he also mentioned that fighting vipers 2 , 2001 port done directly by am2 , has downgraded characters that are less 3000 polygons and the stages aren't far behind. Could it just be that despite all the fame am2 just wasn't adept on using the Dreamcast properly considering tecmos game seems to run circle around pretty much everything?.

Probably the thing with Fighting Vipers 2 and others Model 3 ports is exactly that, those are games built around the complex tech of Model 3, so at the time they were not capable to convert the game 100% faithfully, bc DC has an entire different architecture. And about the DOA 2 numbers, yes, they absolutely prove VF4 could be somewhat handled by DC. Could DOA 2 Engine be modified to create a....DC VF 4?